Questions on faith, religion, spirituality, and God, All are welcome, but please be supportive! Options

[queenbean]

In the "surprising secrets" thread, I said:

A surprising secret is that I have conflicting feelings about my faith, and I don't understand why. I have literally heard the words of God on numerous occasions in my life -- not my conscience, not a hallucination, but God actually speaking to me -- and yet outside of those moments I am filled with fear and doubt. I am unable to let go of the questions I have and just have faith, even though I long to do that. I am working on it, but I have a long way to go.

And a lot of people spoke up, saying that they have similar feelings. I'd like for this to be a place where we can discuss our doubts and fears related to God and religion, and hopefully we can help one another work through these doubts. None of us will ever have all the answers while we walk this earth, but if we can help one another along on our spiritual journey, I think we'll all be better off for it.

Anyone is free to chime in, but please, be respectful and supportive. If you are offended by the idea of Christianity and God and cannot offer anything constructive to the discussion, please just navigate your browser away from this thread. I have a feeling that many of the people posting in this thread, myself included, are feeling a bit vulnerable, so we need words of love. My intention with this thread is for people to explore their faith and try to allay any fears that we may have so that we can find our true spiritual path.

[travelgirl]

Anyone is free to chime in, but please, be respectful and supportive. If you are offended by the idea of Christianity and God and cannot offer anything constructive to the discussion, please just navigate your browser away from this thread.

I just thought that needed to be said again, let's not start a debate about which faith or whether any faith is right or wrong here.

Thanks, everyone!

[queenbean]

Nobody's biting, eh? Did we all get our thoughts out in the other thread?

I'll start with something. I've always had a real problem reconciling scientific "fact" with Biblical "truth." They don't match up. And after all, if the scientists prove something that goes against the Bible, doesn't that make the Bible untrue?

But I'm finding that a lot of the things that we take for granted as scientific facts are less factual than speculative. I've noticed that scientific truth is recanted surprisingly often. And I recently discovered a website that lays out the scientific assertions alongside Biblical truth, and I'm learning that many of the things we accept as fact are really just shaky assumptions. Check it out: www.GodSaidManSaid.com. I haven't made my way through much of the site yet, but I'm finding a lot of answers there. Right now I'm reading the articles under "Archaeology," but there are a lot more sections there with more topics for discussion.

[travelgirl]

I'm a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I do still struggle with the day to day stuff. I'm a sinner, and that will never change. But I try every day to live my life for Him.

[misty_dawn]

I go to a baptist church and I love it. My church family is great and my son loves going to sunday school.

But I have questions about my faith sometimes too. I don't think everything is as black and white as people like to believe. I don't think we'll ever know every thing God is doing, and that he can still change his mind about things. I don't automatically think any religion besides mine is wrong.

[queenbean]

I find that as I read my Bible, or when I hear things in sermon, I automatically go into cynical mode. I read the story of Adam and Eve, and I think, "Ancient people were trying to come up with a reason that a woman has pain in childbirth, so this is what they came up with." I read about the rainbow, and I think the same thing.

I have a hard time in my rational brain accepting the Bible as absolute truth, and yet when I hear somebody say that they believe it's more a collection of stories or a fascinating piece of literature, my mind says, "No, that's not right, it IS truth." My heart believes it, but my mind does not. This is a problem.

[Roan]

Hi Queenbean,

I like many of the concepts of Christianity but cannot wrap my head around the idea of God having a mortal son and him dying for us. So while I feel comfortable in Christian churches when the topics are about how to live a loving life I get uncomfortable when the talk centers on accepting Jesus. Does that make sense? Then I just feel like a hypocrite for attending the church if I can't accept the one premise that church is built around. But I love the other aspects! And it's hard to say out loud when it seems everyone around you seems to believe in Jesus without any reservations.

I grew up without religion until I asked my grandmother to take me to church. I was about 11. Then for 3 years we went to Catholic church with her every Sunday, until we moved away to NC. About 10 years ago or so my Mom became a Born Again Christian. My sisters are also moving towards a church. I don't talk to them about it because I don't want to get into conflict with my family.

I attended various churches in CA as well. Usually with friends. One time I saw a list on a good friend's table. It was a list of 10 people that needed to be saved. My name was #1! I was shocked, but I never said anything because I didn't want to appear to have been snooping. I wasn't snooping, it was just on top of the tv. He never said anything either. I couldn't imagine what I could have done that I would be number 1 on someone's list to be saved. I thought I was doing a great job of living a good life. Yet somehow I came before DH who has done all sorts of traditionally sinful things. I just don't get it.

I'm digressing again. I really need to learn to stay on topic, even in OT threads!!

April

[chantlaura]

Wow. I've been away most of the day, having my car worked on, or I'd have chimed in a lot sooner (You KNOW by now, you can't keep me out of a good discussion of Faith, right?)

Doubts are normal, I think. They're an indication of our desire for a Faith that has integrity and substance. They're what push us on to greater excellence and fidelity to the Truth.

I've had several keen mystical experiences of the love of God over the years, beginning with the first when I was seventeen. They usually come to me at very crucial times and give me guidance and direction and the reassurance that God loves me.

But - doubts about theological issues? not in a long time. I was received into the Catholic Church almost six years ago, and I wrestled with a LOT of issues in the years preceding that moment, but once I knew that's where I belonged, that was it.

Now I'm working to get my character lined up with what I know.

It's more than possible, it's very likely that I'll join a lot of other fervent believers in a "Dark Night of the Soul" before I'm done, and I hope that, when that season arrives, I'll be faithful, but for now I'm resting after a lot of years of fighting.

I trust you'll pray for me? and I will pray for you, too -

[travelgirl]

That is a problem. I'm not sure how you reconcile your heart and mind, besides just reading everything you can lay eyes on.

The truth is out there, you just have to find it. I'll post some helpful websites if I can find them again. There are lots out there.

[misty_dawn]

I have a hard time in my rational brain accepting the Bible as absolute truth, and yet when I hear somebody say that they believe it's more a collection of stories or a fascinating piece of literature, my mind says, "No, that's not right, it IS truth." My heart believes it, but my mind does not. This is a problem.

That's exactly what I have a hard time with. I want to believe all the stories are true, but in there is so much science and evidence against it that it's hard. And when people find out that you believe they act like you're stupid and naive.

But - doubts about theological issues? not in a long time. I was received into the Catholic Church almost six years ago, and I wrestled with a LOT of issues in the years preceding that moment, but once I knew that's where I belonged, that was it.

I hope that I will get to that point soon. I'm studying right now to become a member of my church, and there will be a baptism in the fall. Hopefully I'll be ready by then and know for sure that I want to be a part of the church. It really does feel right, but I still have alot of questions that I don't know how to ask. Everyone at church seems so sure about everything, like they've known their whole lives.

I grew up going to a christian science society. They read the bible but it's not the same as a church. I don't know if all christian scientists are like this, but they made the bible stories seem like they were just stories for us to learn from. They never mentioned being saved, or going to hell. They didn't even use the words hell or devil. They called him Error. I was saved in high school, I went to a pentacostal church and was the vice-president of bible club, but I think it was mostly because all my friends were doing it. I'm just now learning alot about god and church.

[chantlaura]

Hi Queenbean,

I like many of the concepts of Christianity but cannot wrap my head around the idea of God having a mortal son and him dying for us. So while I feel comfortable in Christian churches when the topics are about how to live a loving life I get uncomfortable when the talk centers on accepting Jesus. Does that make sense? Then I just feel like a hypocrite for attending the church if I can't accept the one premise that church is built around. But I love the other aspects! And it's hard to say out loud when it seems everyone around you seems to believe in Jesus without any reservations...

... One time I saw a list on a good friend's table. It was a list of 10 people that needed to be saved. My name was #1! I was shocked, but I never said anything because I didn't want to appear to have been snooping. I wasn't snooping, it was just on top of the tv. He never said anything either. I couldn't imagine what I could have done that I would be number 1 on someone's list to be saved. I thought I was doing a great job of living a good life. Yet somehow I came before DH who has done all sorts of traditionally sinful things. I just don't get it.

I'm digressing again. I really need to learn to stay on topic, even in OT threads!!

April

April,
The one line I just bolded has made me very mad - and I used to belong to a couple of churches that did that sort of thing.

#1 - it's darned presumptuous of them to decide that you aren't being saved right now.
#2 - their only criteria for whether you are or not is whether you are "one of them."

I'm steaming over it. I really am.

The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is one of the great Mysteries of the Christian Faith. St Augustine had a vision in which a child (the Christ Child?) told him that he would be able to count all the grains of sand on that beach more easily than he would ever comprehend the Mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Jesus is God - uniquely conceived by the Power of the Holy Spirit and possessing all the knowledge and understanding of man that comes from His being God. But He voluntarily limited himself in His humanity, as the Son of Mary, to time and space; as a Man He also had the same concrete sensory experiences that the rest of us do, and He was also placed in the position of CHOICE regarding sin - the Bible tells us He was tempted as we are, and was like us in every respect except in sin.

How does the Holy Trinity "work"?

Think of it this way: we have several elements in the natural world that can be analagous to the Trinity: the chemical formula H2O can exist as a solid, a liquid, or a gas - ice, water, steam vapor. If conditions are right, you can see all three of them existing side by side. Yet, chemically, even though they look and "feel" different, they're the same thing.

We measure time as past, present and future - and space by height, depth and breadth.

In a similar fashion, God exists as Three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are distinct yet One. They know with the same intellectual capacity, They love with the same Heart, They have the same character and Being, even though we know them in different ways/manifestations.

That's just a starting point. WHY the Trinity matters is linked to the Resurrection and other issues. I can go a lot deeper with it if need be. Just let me know.

[Nugs]

Such a good idea for a thread

I grew up in what would be classed as a good catholic household. I listened to our priest and the nuns at school and never took time to question my faith. As I have grown up I have taken the time to think about God, my faith and what these mean to me.

I went through a period of struggling with my belief but have found myself returning to my faith but on a different level. One thing I found hard was really believing what was in the bible. This changed for me after I met the most amazing priest who I am sure would have got in trouble with the church for what he said but it made real sense to me. He told me to stop trying to understand the bible as a literal document. For example many of the gospels (including those written and rejected in the middle ages) were written many years after Jesus death. He said to me that I should look at the meaning of the stories and how we can apply these morals and values to our lives.

This made a real difference for me and helped me to think about God in my daily life. I think it is only right for us to question our faith. I have found that blindling accepting without finding our personal meaning is where we as a society face problems.

xx

[fragglerock03]

I really need to get some things done while I'm still feeling well. So I'm going to make this quick(ish).

This is what I posted in the secret thread.

Yes I believe in God, I believe in heaven, on the contrary, I have a hard time grasping the 'big bang' theory, since I also believe in evolution. I have a hard time grasping it all.

I haven't been to church since college. I don't know how to start looking for one I'd like. I don't belong do any certain denomination. I couldn't really tell you the difference in each denomination to even start finding a church. I would really like to join one, but I don't want to join a church just because I think I should. I don't want to go to a "preachy" church, I don't like to be preached at, I want to be taught. Does that make since? I also feel guilty that my boys aren't baptized yet.

Like I said I don't even know where to start. How did you choose what church to attend?

I have more, but I need to go.

[chantlaura]

Nugs,
One of the things that drives me NUTS about the Church is that formal instruction ENDS with Confirmation - just as kids are reaching the age they can really, in terms of developmental maturity, start to GET IT!!! and HAVE FUN WITH IT - and just REVEL IN IT -

A lot of those gospels you refer to were gnostic "gospels," actually rejected at the Council of - was it Nicea? in the fourth century, not the Middle Ages. I'll double-check which council this was, but likely won't be able to post again today.

[queenbean]

My internet died for a bit, which I took as a sign that I needed to get off here and do my dishes.

April, that bit about the "list" got me fired up too. I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with Christianity myself -- it seems that the most vocal Christians are the ones who are doing all the judging, which is a decidedly un-Christian trait. Did Jesus not tell us to remove the plank from our own eye before plucking out the speck from someone else's? It infuriates me that so many people run around condemning others, and yet they claim to walk with Jesus. Who is your "friend" to decide who needs saving and who doesn't, and who needs it more than others? Who are any of us to decide that? That's very upsetting to me.

I feel as though too many people take some parts of the Bible that they like and conveniently ignore the parts that they don't like so much. I once knew a guy who was remaining abstinent until marriage, which I thought was great, until he told me that the reason he was saving himself was that when he got married, his wife would have to give it to him whenever he wanted, because of the whole "wives, obey your husbands" verse. He conveniently forgot the next part about "husbands, honor your wives." (I know I'm getting the words wrong, but I've read the verse. It's there.)

I guess I just wonder what happens to us if we don't follow the Bible to the letter? Is there a degree of error that God will allow? Are some rules really more just suggestions, and we can ignore them if we choose? That doesn't seem right. The rules are there for a reason, I can't see how it makes sense that we can just pick and choose the ones we want to follow. But then it also doesn't seem right that we have to live perfectly in order to inherit the throne. You see why I am conflicted?

I will also add that I was not raised in a church. My own parents seem very conflicted -- we had Bibles in the house and they talked about God and Heaven, but church was actively discouraged, and those Bibles were never used for anything other than storing 4-leaf clovers that we wanted to press for safekeeping. I went with a friend for one summer, but that was mostly because my mom wanted me to be more social, even though she didn't like me going to church. She expressed disapproval when I and my children were baptized.

[qkrpaula]

He told me to stop trying to understand the bible as a literal document. For example many of the gospels (including those written and rejected in the middle ages) were written many years after Jesus death. He said to me that I should look at the meaning of the stories and how we can apply these morals and values to our lives.

Yes.

Defining the Bible as literal does damage to the Bible. It loses all its texture as holy stories. Jesus spoke in parables, so why should everything be literal?

I have known many deeply spiritual people who are scientists. There is absolutely nothing in science and religion that are in conflict, as long as you don't insist that the Bible be the absolute literal Truth in every word. (Besides, whose translation is literal?? The various pieces of the Bible weren't even written in the same language.)

As I noted in the other thread, I was raised Agnostic. I still don't grasp all the religious language of the many Xian faiths, but I come closest to understanding when I let my intuition (the Spirit?) grasp it for a fleeting moment outside of language.

[Flybaby in PA]

April,
The one line I just bolded has made me very mad - and I used to belong to a couple of churches that did that sort of thing.

#1 - it's darned presumptuous of them to decide that you aren't being saved right now.
#2 - their only criteria for whether you are or not is whether you are "one of them."

I'm steaming over it. I really am.

{{{EDITED}}}

Chantlaura,

Please don't be so upset about this. I am speaking as "one of them" but don't make list and I don't try to get anyone saved anymore.

The list that April seen was just a list of people this person wanted to talk to. April came to mind first or the person cares alot about April to put her at the top of the list. Nothing more. She isn't any worse than anyone else on the list, or not on the list. We are all sinners and if you lied once in your life you sinned. Or if you killed someone you still have sinned. IMO sin is sin and it is man that made lying worst than murder. I think they are the same in God's eyes. Look at the ten conmandments. It doesn't state that one is different than another. It says don't do the things on the list.

As "one of them" They would ask "If you died today, right now, are you 100% positive you would go to heaven?" That is how they know whether or not your born again/need to be saved.

The rest that you said about the Trinity I believe too.

[3ringcircus]

I have a hard time in my rational brain accepting the Bible as absolute truth, and yet when I hear somebody say that they believe it's more a collection of stories or a fascinating piece of literature, my mind says, "No, that's not right, it IS truth." My heart believes it, but my mind does not. This is a problem.

One thing you must remember when reading the bible is that it is written by people. I don't say that to sound snide, but because it is, it is opinion and from the author of that particualar book's perspective.

I was always taught that the bible isn't literal truth, but a guide to good living. Yes, it is the Word of God, but it is the Word written through others perspectives.
I don't know if I'm making any sense here, but this is one of the reasons so many people use the bible to back up their opinions. (be them good or bad) It's unfortunately easy to twist the words in it to fit any argument to your side.

[soaring]

Roan, I am with you. I just don't believe in many of the stories in the bible. It's very possible that Jesus existed and was a good man and was crucified, but I don't think he rose from the dead or turned water to wine or anything else that can't be explained. I take the bible as what it is, a book, and not truth.
does that mean I'm doomed? It scares me sometimes, but I sure hope not!

[3ringcircus]

A key component to any Christian denomination is Belief. To not be the doubting Thomas of the Bible.
I don't remember exactly the words, but to it goes something like this
To see and believe is one thing
But to believe without seeing is best.

I know that isn't the way it goes, but it follows the story of Thomas not believing that Christ had risen until he put his hands on Christ's wounds and saw his scarred hands and feet. Its a fundamental tenet of our religion to believe this is true...and that he is coming back for us. Someday.